Dragonborn

Vamprey 04 Feb 2015 07:00

Ok here is a stab at Dragonborn for our house rules. I used a combo of 4th, 5th and 13th age for the base and added a few bits to hopefully balance it out a bit.

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Dragonborn

The information here represents the proud and honorable race of dragonborn from Dungeons & Dragons 4th & 5th Edition Player's Handbook (page 32). They also appear in 13th Age as Draconic/ Dragonspawn.

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Dragonborn Traits

• Ability Score Increase. +2 Strength, +1 Charisma.
• Dragon Breath. You can use your action to exhale destructive energy. Your draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation (PHB p34). Creatures in your breaths path must save (DC 8+ your Constitution modifier + proficiency bonus.) A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level. After you use your breath weapon, you can’t use it again until you com plete a short or long rest.
• Damage Resistance. You have damage resistance to the damage type associated with your draconic ancestry.
• Languages. Common & Draconic
• Presence. Due to either their stature or some vestige of draconic ancestry Dragonborn are noticed by those around them and gain advantage on Intimidation checks.
• Scaled Hide. While a Dragonborns’ hide is supple it is still tougher than human skin. +1 AC.
• Bonus Proficiencies. You can choose any 1 proficiency from: Athletics, Heavy blades, Shields, History, Warfare & Intimidation

Racial Drawbacks

• Honorable. You have disadvantage on all Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) and Charisma (Deception) checks.
• Slow to act. A combination of their honourable nature, extra bulk and reptilian nature means that Dragonborn are slower to act then many folks. -2 Dexterity & you have disadvantage on Dexterity (Quickness) checks, including initiative and Dexterity saves.

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Dragonborn

Connors 04 Feb 2015 11:42

You are missing one imp reference; our B&B versions ;) (But actually, it looks like you have checked it out ;))

I haven't PHb w me, so i will have to check out how you have used that stuff.

Adv on all Intimidate? Most races just gain the free prof (like elves and Perception). Perhaps just give them prof in it, then they choose 1 other from list (to which Endurance might be appropriate).

For Drawbacks. Just write the name of the flaw (minor or major) w a brief description. This is on purpose (in case the Flaws change). (See other races).

Not sure all should have Slow To Act? I will have a look at FLaws again later.

Not sure how natural hide works still. +1 AC apparently was removed from this (and other races) as too powerful? And this means it stacks with armor. Or is it worded, they have a natural armor of 11 + Dex bonus when unarmored (which is useless for armored DB)?

I get the feeling natural armor stacks, so you have to be very careful with it.

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Dragonborn

Vamprey 05 Feb 2015 00:23

• Ooops yea I did use B&B just forgot to reference it.

• Intimidate - yea I'm not 100% on them having advantage either, I was leaning towards them having the double prof bonus in it instead. But am just as happy with them at just automatic proficiency in Intimidation.

• well the drawback I added is kind of a combination of two, one being Clumsy and I didn't really think that they should be defined as clumsy (-2 DEX). I can definitely see them being Slow to act based upon their Honor and "reduced DEX", waiting to see if there foe will really attack them and give them no choice but to attack back.
• Yea I wasn't sure either but I thought I would add it and see what our discussions arrived at. Easier to suggest it adn then remove it rather than don't put it in and then perhaps forget about it. But yes is powerful trait if it does stack, whick is another reason I wanted to give them a bit more in teh drawback area.

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Dragonborn

Connors 02 Mar 2015 10:37

You know, I would just remove 'Presence' altogether and add Intimidate and Persuasion to the list of Bonus Proficiencies (and give them more).

Given their reptilian nature, I am coming around to the poor reflexes/slow to act flaw. It is a big one though, and not sure it would suit all dragonborn, esp if we one go subraces or inc the spawn. But for now I can see it. Might have to beef them up more to compensate though.

Also, along these lines; Heavy Sleeper. Dragons supposedly sleep a lot. ;) Though, not sure this is needed for all dragonborn?

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Nicko (guest) 02 Mar 2015 20:06

are they cold blooded?, would they be more active during the day and less so at night or cold environment, perhaps a flaw of some sort to reflect this, penalties at night or cold environment

Connors 02 Mar 2015 22:59

Not necessarily. (Especially if we go with subraces - white and silver live in icy environments). I was going with the old school % dragons are asleep. ;)

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Nicko (guest) 02 Mar 2015 23:01

makes sense

Connors 03 Mar 2015 01:07

On the Flaws. I have tended to avoid Major flaws. So maybe just go with Clumsy for now. The name might not suit, but -2 Dex does.

Note that later - if we start down the subrace path - this can vary according to the type.

I have the 4E Dragonborn supplement by Green Ronin (I think), and I reckon they did do 'subraces' for 4E. I will try and find it and have a look.

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Natural Armor

Connors 05 Mar 2015 11:33

Based upon discussion I started in this ENWorld thread, I would go with something just like the dragon sorcerer. Your AC is 11/12/13? (whichever) + DEX. Does not stack with armor. Better armor replaces this value.

It might not make sense for what type of class most dragonborn will play, but it is how it works in 5E.

BTW: Shane, are you going to put this up? If you don't soon, I will?

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Natural Armor

Vamprey 07 Mar 2015 00:10

ok yea that makes complete sense.

Will put up soon.

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Natural Armor

Connors 08 Mar 2015 12:37

Ummm, what you posted to the Races Page was a copy of your initial post? With nothing from this thread that has been written since? That is NOT the dragonborn I would go with. You said yourself "That makes sense" above, but seem to have ignored everything here (if you are actually 'here', as in, in the thread…as opposed to Recent Posts)? I take it you cut and pasted but for some reason did not get around to changes?

The Drawback and Natural Armor are main concerns obviously (from disc above).

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Natural Armor

Vamprey 08 Mar 2015 18:33

Um no it isn't. Yes I forgot to change the drawback (now done) but the wording in the natural a/c has that it doesn't stack with armor bonuses (i.e. it doesn't affect the base a/c if you are wearing armor which is how i took it, as per the Enworld sorcerer discussion, was how it should work).

I also (as per discussion ) removed the Presence trait , adding it to proficiencies and increasing the number of proficiencies as discussed above.

Dragonborn Traits
Ability Score Increase. +2 Strength, +1 Charisma.
Dragon Breath. You can use your action to exhale destructive energy. Your draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation (PHB p34). Creatures in your breaths path must save (DC 8+ your Constitution modifier + proficiency bonus.) A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level. After you use your breath weapon, you can’t use it again until you com plete a short or long rest.
Damage Resistance. You have damage resistance to the damage type associated with your draconic ancestry.
Languages. Common & Draconic
Presence. Due to either their stature or some vestige of draconic ancestry Dragonborn are noticed by those around them and gain advantage on Intimidation checks.
Scaled Hide. While a Dragonborns’ hide is supple it is still tougher than human skin. +1 AC.
Bonus Proficiencies. You can choose any 1 proficiency from: Athletics, Heavy blades, Shields, History, Warfare & Intimidation

Racial Drawbacks
Honorable. You have disadvantage on all Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) and Charisma (Deception) checks.
Slow to act. A combination of their honourable nature, extra bulk and reptilian nature means that Dragonborn are slower to act then many folks. -2 Dexterity & you have disadvantage on Dexterity (Quickness) checks, including initiative and Dexterity saves.

vs

Dragonborn Traits
Ability Score Increase. +2 Strength, +1 Charisma.
Dragon Breath. You can use your action to exhale destructive energy. Your draconic ancestry determines the size, shape, and damage type of the exhalation (PHB p34). Creatures in your breaths path must save (DC 8+ your Constitution modifier + proficiency bonus.) A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level. After you use your breath weapon, you can’t use it again until you com plete a short or long rest.
Damage Resistance. You have damage resistance to the damage type associated with your draconic ancestry.
Languages. Common & Draconic
Scaled Hide. While a Dragonborns’ hide is supple it is still tougher than human skin. +1 AC. Does not stack with armor bonuses.

Bonus Proficiencies. You can choose any 3 proficiency from: Athletics, Heavy blades, Persuasion, Shields, History, Warfare & Intimidation

Racial Drawbacks
Honorable. You have disadvantage on all Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) and Charisma (Deception) checks.
Slow to act. A combination of their honourable nature, extra bulk and reptilian nature means that Dragonborn are slower to act then many folks. -2 Dexterity & you have disadvantage on Dexterity (Quickness) checks, including initiative and Dexterity saves.

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Natural Armor

Connors 09 Mar 2015 06:58

Ah, sorry. There were changes - I just noticed the main 2 ;)

I saw the +1 AC bit (did not take in the doesn't stack bit). Which means it should be worded as stated above (and as sorcerer). You don't actually get +1 , your AC without armor = 12 + Dex or whatever we decided on. I am just wondering what value we make it: 11/12/13.

Lower might mean nothing. I am actually thinking it should be 12 or 13, as it is useless with armor anyway. What do you reckon? I am going with 13 for now. I'll edit.

And change wording of Drawback to be the same as others. Which inc what type of flaw it is and doesn't inc the actual rules - you go to Flaws page for that.

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Last edited on 09 Mar 2015 07:00 by Connors Show more

Re: Dragonborn - Underpowered - Feat Fix

Connors 02 May 2020 02:52

Ok, I see we had a lot of discussion on dragonborn back in the day.

I have noticed that they are written off as severely under-powered in practically every media and forum I visit.

I am proposing one simple fix. Like humans, they start with a feat. But a dragonborn racial feat. With the 2 I have written that is a choice of 4. I am also adding a feat today for increased USES of dragon breath, so that would be at least 5.

Thoughts?

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Dragonborn - Underpowered - Feat Fix

Vamprey 03 May 2020 08:46

Sounds fine to me. Though having just played a dragonborn in Darus I can say that I never felt that he was underpowered, but that could be due to our use of drawbacks

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Dragonborn - Underpowered - Feat Fix

Connors 03 May 2020 09:21

Yeah, I think it is also about getting a chance to BE a dragon being. Why breathe when you have better damaging options? It uses your action and doesn't do a lot, especially as we move up the levels.

Anyway. It is universally stated as underpowered and lacks a lot of basic Dragon features. Natural armor that even a dragon sorcerer gets ;)

Rather that tack one thing on, I thought I would just grant a racial feat so there is also some choice :)

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Dragonborn - Underpowered - Feat Fix & possible exrta feats

Vamprey 03 May 2020 12:23

Repeating Dragon Breath
Just so I am clear, if using the card initiative you can use your dragon breath every round in your card is a spade, so if combat goes for 20 rounds and you get twenty spades you can use it 20 times.

Suggestions (not flushed out yet):
Winged - you have wings as if a dragon allowing you to glide.
True Flight - prereq: winged - you can fly at the same speed as your dragon origin
Buffet - prereq: winged - you can use your wings to attack foes
Tailed - you have a tail and can use it to attack foes

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Dragonborn - Underpowered - Feat Fix & possible exrta feats

Connors 04 May 2020 00:16

Yes to the breath weapon. Any round you have a Spade.

I think I will remove that though. I have issues with stuff like that 'out of combat'. Kinda means they can just do it. ;)

I like some of your other feat ideas. I haven't been through other books specifically for dragonborn yet. I know they had rituals feats where wings develop etc. Also for our Mohj that literally undertake rituals to become dragons. There is also a small race called drakin in Sundered Skies that have Edges that progress you through to dragon.

So, I was thinking of adding wings in there, if people are happy with dragonborn 'developing' these later on.

The tail one is a good idea. I could add that to lizardfolk etc. If you have a tail, you can use it as a tripping attack. :D Good one.

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Dragonborn - Underpowered - Feat Fix & possible exrta feats

Connors 04 May 2020 00:58

I removed that stuff about a Spade for Repeating Breath.

I added the new Trait to dragonborn on the Race Page. :)

(So, Shane, yes, that means Darus gains this :D).

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Dragonborn - Underpowered - Feat Fix & possible exrta feats

Vamprey 04 May 2020 09:09

yea that's kinda what I was thinking, with the use out of combat. I don't mind the idea of them maybe not wasting a charge if they use it when they get a spade initiative card as long as this ability may only be used once per combat.

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Dragonborn - Underpowered - Feat Fix & possible exrta feats

Connors 04 May 2020 10:22

I just dumped the spade idea for now ;)

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Dragonborn - Tail feat

Connors 04 May 2020 03:18

Hey, Shane, I have started the tail feat, bu I need to wait to get home to finish it.

I need to check some working for 5E about natural attacks and see if there are any egs of tail attacks - as I also need to add them to the Weapon Proficiencies/Groups page under Natural weapons :)

(NB to self: guard drakes are similar size and have a tail attack :)).

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: Dragonborn - Tail feat

Vamprey 04 May 2020 09:05

noted

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Dragonborn - Tail feat

Connors 04 May 2020 10:21

Sweeping Tail feat is complete now :)

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman