What do you look for as a player?

Summary:

Actually a thread to help me improve my GMing skills.

What do you look for as a player?

Connors 25 Jul 2011 01:03

There have been MANY articles regarding 'knowing your players and groups', inc articles on Roleplaying vs Hack'n'slash, and what 'type' of player you are. I have read a lot of those and don't intend to turn this post into one of those (though I do recommend reading the chapters on this in the 3E DMG2 = very good stuff).

Anyway, in an effort to know my players better I wish to ask them about the main 'story components' that grab them the most. (Yes, this is stemming from some of my English teaching of narratives, but more importantly a realisation on how much setting and tone are important to me as a player/reader).

Obviously you are not going to like one of these at the expense of all others, but what is is you look for in an actual session/game/encounter (not overall campaign setting)? What are you most looking for as a player in the key parts of a night's gaming?

Main parts of story:
1. Plot
2. Setting
3. Character

Could also add Theme/Tone.

I have come to the realisation Setting (and tone) is most important to me. I like to 'visualise' where my PC is and what is going on around him/her. Being able to put myself in their shoes is what gets me going. Just like reading books and watching movie conversions of fantasy - the setting and tone have to be there. I can put up with a dodgy plot even, and characters being bumped off are fine by me b/c I don't 'invest' in them.

I would have once said 'Character', b/c I like RPing, but I would play any character even with a one word hook…and not care if I lost them.

Anyway, this has all stemmed from a conversation with Aido and an epiphany of my own, learnt whilst being a player again. I hope to use it to better GM. I have heaps more thoughts on this, but will limit myself to the scattered musings above.

What about you?

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Last edited on 25 Jul 2011 04:49 by Connors Show more

Re: What do you look for as a player?

Chaddy 25 Jul 2011 10:32

I find one important thing is how my character effects the world around them. I find that if its to much like a tv episode, ie everything resets after an episode so it doesn't matter what happens, I find this pulls me back into reality. I love the fact that killing attacking the goblins in the forest and accidently starting a forest fire, could destroy the lumber towns source of income down the road. Also I tend to like a good mix - hack & slash, rping, plots and in depth descriptions of the world around me all thrown around at random. Character death doesn't worry me at all, i tend to find it refreshing even, a new start to try something different. Overall the most important thing in my opinion is the setting, I like to be able to believe I'm there, that the world almost real.

Re: Chaddy's response

Connors 25 Jul 2011 23:42

Thanks Chaddy - sounds like me :)

And by Setting I mean immediate setting here - where your character is right now. Can he use the environment for this fight, does the town seem 'real' enough? I don't mean the overall Campaign Setting. If the Campaign Setting has a distinct tone/feel, that should still come down to the encounter.

I am trying to focus this thread on the story your PCs are involved in (not the overall direction of a Campaign Setting). Which is why I like Chaddy's part about the characters actions having an effect on the setting - that really gets me in too.

Chaddy, you got what I meant :). Thanks for reply…and it seems that is 2 of us for Setting first. (Not that I want this to be a competition - I am trying to improve my GMing based upon what players like).

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Last edited on 25 Jul 2011 23:44 by Connors Show more

Aido's Response

Aido72 28 Jul 2011 07:37

Well for me setting is important, though I must admit as a GM I sometimes find it hard to make a setting come alive, it all depends on where the setting is and the logistics of setting it up. My imagination is awesome, I can come up with a setting for a cave or for a forest or most things and have them set in my head as to what they look like, but it is conveying that to my players that I find hard, and I think I have worked out why, I'm too much of a perfectionist, if I can't get the setting/layout perfect then I struggle to get it at all (the old all or nothing thing that has plagued me in real life too).
So setting is very important to me as a player.
I love the plot, especially if its a good one, with a few twists, but plots don't make or break a game for me.
For me Character development and roleplaying is the big thing, I love losing myself in a character, building them and influencing the world around them through that character. I rarely lose characters, and that is because I play them as though it were me, and I certainly wouldn't want to die, so I do all I can to save my character, unless of course they are someone who is quite happy to give their lives, then i will roleplay the character in that way. It doesn't bother me losing a character, and like most people I love creating new ones, but building them up is what I love the most.

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The odds are pretty good but the goods are pretty odd still at this point I'd take anything you've got.

Re: Aido's Response

Connors 28 Jul 2011 09:46

Cool. Though, i knew you were a 'Character' person ;) Can certainly see that. You carry this into your GMing too. Your RPing of NPCs is always excellent.

maybe you just need to 'go with it' for the setting, like you do for NPCs.

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

nicko (guest) 03 Aug 2011 21:28

I thaught i might my two bits in. i enjoy creating new characters but developing them also, i prefere low level campagn where a orc still has the capacity to scare low level characters and a 2nd level spell is considered quiet powerful. i dont like fighting and destoying a high level being(say demon lord of some sort) and kiling him without anybody in the party suffering death or serious wounds it just seems a little unrealistic. i do get more involved in the story if i am able to imagine the would around me pictures help in this regard. having an impact on the would around us is important and sometimes unexpected side effect of our actions in the game would. learning a little about the real would is good also eg egyptian culture and customs. i dont like puzzle senarios where everything grinds to a stand still while we(as a party) tries to figure out how to open a door or find a contact or decifer a clue. it quickly becomes frustrating and i find my character doing recless actions just to try and keep the game moving along.

Nicho's reply

Connors 04 Aug 2011 00:11

Hey, thanks for joining us again Nicko - you know you should just sign up. (Just need an email and click join this site on the grey bar at the top).

Thanks for you reply. So it sounds like you are a character person first, but the rest is close behind (including a moving storyline).

I hear you about the puzzles, etc. As a player I am just not as into that, but I know some love solving mysteries. I too feel frustrated at those times, but look at the investigative work Aido and Chaddy (and others) did as players to work out where to go to find Rahotep's tomb - that must have been rewarding when their ideas came out.

I hear you re the door. It is like a trap that only has one way of solving, but I think in the case of Rahotep's tomb there were many clues that the door would not be visible (especially to an uncivilised wemic, I thought the players dropped the ball on that one, after so much work to find the location).

Re the demon lord, etc. I certainly dropped the ball on that one. That did NOT feel like a fight with a Demon lord to em either. Being quite a new system and just me doing the conversions, I have certainly learnt a lot from that. I even started a thread at the PEGInc boards suggesting ideas.

I got a lot of good responses, but unfortunately, a lot of posters simply questioned encounter design. IE a big bad should have traps, minions, etc, but they couldn't understand that I still wanted some fights with just one creature (as the module was originally written). That Demon Lord was enslaved after all, he was not there on own free will with time to prepare, etc. So ignoring actual encounter design, I did get some good ideas re what powers I could have given it. BUT, it still came down to an economy of actions in my mind. I still liked my suggestion of extra actions for elites and solos…but I digress.

Thanks heaps for FB. It does sound like you are character first…especially when they can have an effect on the world.

RE low level = me too (though 4E is the first edition I would even consider Epic levels, and SW is gritty no matter what level…except when the DM is not harsh enough in his creature design ;) I hope you get to play the system in another game. Check out the Weird Wars campaign site. The amount of PCs and extras we went through in that was extraordinary).

Oh, and did you notice we are playing in Ballarat this Friday? (Blair's game, but you are welcome).

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

GMing Easy?

Connors 08 Aug 2011 08:53

So this thread was created by me to help me (and hopefully others GM). Thanks to those players that have contributed.

I guess the next step is to make some exact suggestions to engage each player's styles. (BTW I like the above stories and classifications more than those commonly used in dnd such as the 4E DMG).

Before I do, I want to say a few things about GMing. Number one is of course is it is not easy. As I tend to do a lot of it I have had a lot of players say that I do things well (thanks). But I am always looking to improve. I certainly don't find it easy, and do not feel I have any real 'talent' for it.

So I have been thinking what DO I do well and what advice can I give. I can only think of three main things right now:

1. Work at it ALL the time - not just when it is your turn. I believe I simply 'know the role of a GM' b/c I do so much reading and thinking on the topic all the time. In the last few weeks since starting this thread alone I have (re)read at least 3 different sources for GMing. I read the GM section for Soloman Kane SW, Some old Dragon articles AND the 4e DM Guide advice sections.

2. Prepare. Have spent a lot of time on this elsewhere, but I need to be well prepared. Yes, I could run a good game winging it, but it tends to be a better game prepared. Comes back to having that setting right, etc. I won't dwell on this as it is an obvious tip, that I am sure all GMs are aware of. (However i will plug a lot of the docs I have put together. Combine tips 1&2; READ them some more, become familiar with them so when the time comes you can use them efficiently).

3. This may seem to go against #2, but 'be prepared to go with it'. I mean in a game, let players be more involved in creating the scene. Go along with their suggestions - this is a big 4E thing: try to say 'Yes' as often as possible. I believe I have adapted my style a lot since reading such sources as 4E DMG.

I don't want this to be a huge post, but really just putting it out there, that I tend to do well at GMing as I work very hard at it. It DOESN'T just happen, I don't feel talented/gifted, etc. I guess that is why I read very few novels, am behind on school work ;) and see few movies/shows. When I get time to put into this I do it. When I play I always look at 'how can this be done better'. I do apologise for causing some grief for Aidan b/c I did this, BUT I also looked for options, offered help etc. But having thought a lot about it, it is just immersing myself in it that gets me there I guess.

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Last edited on 08 Aug 2011 08:54 by Connors Show more

Re: GMing Easy?

Aido72 16 Aug 2011 13:02

Thank you Connors, that was a great post and I got a lot out of it, being prepared is such an important part of DMing, and I know that when I run a game, if I'm not prepared it throws me out, I like to have everything in order, but there have been times when things happen and you're not prepared, it is in those times that I struggle the most, so the answer for me there is to learn to be flexible, become more familiar with the rules and the setting, so that if I do have to go with the flow, at least I have a good grounding on how things work.
I enjoy GMing I certainly don't think I'm all that good at it, but I do like it, and I DO think you are very gifted when you GM, it "appears" to come naturally to you, obviously from what you have written it doesn't, but you make it look like it does.
As for the apology, none needed at all my friend, my momentary frustrations at the time were nothing compared to the lesson that I learned and was able to apply.

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The odds are pretty good but the goods are pretty odd still at this point I'd take anything you've got.

Re: GMing Easy?

Chaddy 17 Aug 2011 10:21

I'm with Aido on this, Im good at DMing as long as I'm very prepared. Once I'm winging it I find it very difficult especially to add flavour as I tend to go with what I know which can be plain at times. You definitively give the appearance that it comes naturally Connors and I find I try to mimic your DMing patterns and ideas in my own games.

Re: GMing Easy?

Connors 17 Aug 2011 11:09

Cool - some thoughtful responses.

Don't want to dwell on being prepared, as that is obvious, but more on times when you do run out of time. This does happen and I still like to try and run a game. (I would rather play under-prepped than not at all).

I guess this is where #1 comes in too. If you READ a LOT of the rules, know WHERE to find lots of stuff (such as monster stats on fly, or random buildings, or any other tables) and HOW to use them (referring to a lot of the docs I have put together) all of this helps you to 'wing things'. As well as spending a lot of time (& $ ;)) reading about, buying, selecting and getting props ready beforehand.

All those charts and docs I put together may seem overwhelming (and they would be if you didn't put time into studying them and trying them out), but they sure help on the fly once you know them. They are also great for preparing…and speed things along (once you know how to use them) as well as throwing in ideas that you would never have come up with.

I guess I can make calls on the fly due to having read a lot on GMing (most of it several times). When I make a call, it does come with a lot of knowledge, understanding etc behind it. I have usually read something about it in an advice column, on the boards, or somewhere ;)

Another thing on prep is to make sure it is the right preparation. I have a massive post on this on the Weird Wars site, where I was trying to gauge where Aido was putting his time.

Also on #1: I just can't help myself. I have even been reading the GM section of 'Realms of Cthulhu' again…and yes, there is a lot in there for running a horror game Aido :)

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

GM Sourcebooks - Have You Read Them?

Connors 17 Aug 2011 11:19

We certainly seem to have a lot of our player base who enjoy and are willing to GM. This is a great position to be in. I read about so many groups on the Boards (at Enworld, Wizards, Pinnacle, etc) that have only one.

So I assume you are here out of interest in improving too.

One thing I would like to ask all GMs is 'How many advice articles have you read'? This is not meant to offend. In the early days I cared little for Forums and Advice columns. I just wanted to know the rules and all the cool ways to manipulate them. By advice columns I mean about directly improving GM skills, not how to built better societies, settings, monsters, etc - I always loved those. :)

However, of the last few years I have been getting my hands on every advice column I can. I can even read all those old Dragon Mags I have and I find I read the Forums and Advice columns that I once skipped.

So how many of you have actually read the sections on running a game from the 4E DMG 1+2 for eg. Or the actual GMing section from another game you play. The Savage Worlds section is quite small but very relevant for their Fast! Furious! Fun! aim.

I still find the 3e DMG2 advice section amongst the best. This really got me into advice columns actually and I have kept a copy of this book for these articles. (In fact I have it with me right now ;)) I believe these parts were by Robin D. Laws (someone that had contributed plenty of GMing articles to Dragon Mag - so it was a great idea to get them on board. In fact, I might try and find their blog or site or something, b/c I remember Robin used to post lots of little tables and stuff that I would steal and then expand for my own use).

Those RPG Tips emails I used to get were great too - Blair has posted one that talked about running a horror game (I think I will put a link to the blog here on CC).

Sorry - back to original Q: Which ADVICE articles have you read and which were the best?

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Last edited on 17 Aug 2011 11:21 by Connors Show more

Re: GM Sourcebooks - Have You Read Them? + PF GMG

Connors 10 Nov 2011 03:04

Not many aparrently :(

Anyway, I bought another book simply to find tips on GMing if others are interested. I bought the Pathfinder GameMastery Guide.

Heaps of advice in here. I have only just started, but another thing I noticed was a HEAP of tables for randomly determining things. Me thinks I will be adding a lot of these to my 'collection docs' like Encounters, NPCs, Businesses and Buildings and esp the Realms creation docs. A whole heap of random goodness to add in here :)

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: GM Sourcebooks - Have You Read Them? + Or Sites

Connors 10 Nov 2011 03:24

Also interested in sites of course, such as "The Dungeonmaster Experience" on Wizards site. I already have a thread for it here.

These type of articles where they either give the advice based upon the game/setting played or where they create one as they go are the advice columns I like the best.

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: GM Sourcebooks - Have You Read Them? + PF GMG

blairos 15 Nov 2011 23:12

With regards to the Pathfinder books. I read an article… somewhere… recently that mentioned that they had some great rules for running chases. I've read a couple of them now and, needless to say, the Azentia characters will almost certainly be involved in a chase or two in the near future.

I've got to say that overall I'm fairly impressed with the Pathfinder series. Their layouts and presentation are good, and the info they provide really is well done, and very useable. Looking forward to getting some of their mini's too!

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Hanlon's Razor - Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

Re: Pathfinder books and Chases

Connors 16 Nov 2011 10:11

PF layout, look and feel are amazing. Their adventures and adventure paths are fantastic. Kind of wished I had kept up that subscription, but couldn;t afford it. Whether I use the PF/3.5 system or not, one day I WILL play the 1st adventure path I bought and hopefully more.

Apart for the revelation I got for our Realms charts, i haven't found the GamesMastery Guide to that useful. Not much new and info presented better elsewhere (though I have read a lot about GMing lately).

However, i am not up to the section on Advanced Rules (which includes Chases). Might even need a new thread on this when I get to them. Savage Worlds changed their rules from Explorer's to Deluxe eds…though each could still be used and suit different set ups I believe. Saga has an abstract system for positioning, but I have my own thoughts on Chases. Will talk about in own thread when i read this section in PFGMG.

Which Pathfinder books to you own and have read Blair…very interested and will need to get some from you.

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: What do you look for as a player?

Connors 14 Oct 2012 03:33

Before we start our Playtest Campaign I have come back and reread this thread in preparation. Unfortunately, we did not get a lot of responses to the OP. (In fact, only 1 player from the campaign).

So, it would be nice to hear from some of the other players and their thoughts. :)

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: What do you look for as a player?

Chaddy 14 Oct 2012 04:04

Hey Paul,

Below is Sal's response.

1. Rolepalying and Character development
2. Mystery between pcs/npc - Like some players knowing snippets of information that others dont. Hidden motives etc.
3. Plot
4. Fast action

FYI - I wont be online for about a week

Re: Sal's - What do you look for as a player?

Connors 14 Oct 2012 09:42

Thanks for your input. :)

So, Character #1, followed closely by Plot. (Blair seems to like plot too).

That is cool, but keep in mind what is coming is a campaign - it will not be fight atfer action sequence etc. BUT, you, the players get to drive the plot. You get to choose what plot to follow, what NPCs to interact with etc.

I hope the rumours and contacts I have provided you all help out there - they should especially appeal to your 2nd point ;) (..and right from the start - I like the mystery too :)).

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: What do you look for as a player?

blairos 14 Oct 2012 04:50

Obviously you are not going to like one of these at the expense of all others, but what is is you look for in an actual session/game/encounter (not overall campaign setting)? What are you most looking for as a player in the key parts of a night's gaming?

Main parts of story:
1. Plot
2. Setting
3. Character

Could also add Theme/Tone.

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1) Excitement/Entertainment.

Much like yourself, Connors, I like to visualize the action. This doesn't necessarily mean that I focus much (if at all) on the environment or setting, especially during combat scenes. What I like to focus on are the PCs and NPCs, the actions they take and how they incorporate the setting into their battles. That's why I love some of the old, 'cliche' actions, like tipping over huge pots, swinging on ropes (or chandeliers), ANY KIND OF JUMPING/LEAPING AROUND, and sometimes the classic speedster v brute battle.

I guess you would put this into the 'Setting' category.

2) Progression.

Much like with a movie, I like to know that things are moving, even if we know we are a long way from the epic conclusion. The original Nyaat campaign, when we spent an eternity chasing the bad guys the length of the Ahagin river up into the mountains, is a great example of this. It's a well known tool of TV shows that people walking makes the audience thing that the story is moving. Movement=Progress.

No doubt this would come under 'Plot'.

3) Character.

Character is the icing that makes the cake taste that much better. Whatever the action is, it's always much more exciting if you're invested in the character's success. The plot moving forward means more when you really care about that character's storyline. The characters being able to effect the world because of their personalities, as much as seeing their personalities change and develop because of what they have experienced are more important over the long term, as opposed to a single sessions, but even short term developments make for an entertaining show.

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Hanlon's Razor - Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

Re: What do you look for as a player?

Connors 14 Oct 2012 09:51

Hey, thanks for dropping by Blair.
That all sounds reasonable. I love your first point and REALLy want to return to the cool ideas in combat. In fact, with checks being back in a big way, I might allow things AS WELL AS a normal action.

ie: Make a Str check to push the table into the 2 orcs to the right and if successful you can continue your charge vs those straight ahead. Fail the check and it may count as action for eg.

Re driving the plot and maintaining excitement, being a campaign, you players will be just as responsible for this. As I stated above, I hope rumours, contacts and events help you out, but you guys are the ones that will determine a lot of the pacing.

In that regard, each player must be very conscious of not hogging the limelight. Heavy interaction PCs can do that when starting in civilisation, so be aware of that. (We don't have to fully roleplay EVERY situation/interaction if all players are not involved).

RE movement - that is an interesting observation. (I still love that 'chase' across half a continent and all it was was a series of set events linked together. My own stuff, no module in sight ;) This time we have a set out Adventure Path, but I have absolutely NO issue if you guys choose not to follow it, or not do it all, follow other leads and side treks. Again - I believe I have encouraged this with rumours and contacts. We will see where the action takes us). ;)

My first worry is you meeting and getting along. (And no antagonism b/w yours and Shane's PCs, which often occurred ;)).

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman

Re: What do you look for as a player?

Vamprey 14 Oct 2012 10:26

Man we are never going to live down the Stormclaw/Windchaser rivalry are we.

I guess for me one of the main things is character, both their own personal development and seeing/thinking of how would this character react to the given circumstance, and also the interaction between my own character and the others. I guess this ties in to what has been said about the leaping about etc, as I tend to like playing characters that leap and jump around the battle (and it looks like this theme will continue with Antonio).

On a per session basis it gets much harder as I think I tend to change what I like from session to session, ie sometimes I like a heavy action session, another time I love talking to the bartenders and tings like that. More and more Im thinking ti isnt actually what happens with the characters in the session but rather how much we all as players enjoyed it, interacted with each other and just had fun in general. Which probably isnt much help.

While it's nice to have a plot thats progressing it is also nice to go off on tangents for some imagined purpose that someones character thinks is super important, or even go off on a completely wrong line and have to retrace.

Hope Im making some sense, think Im rambling on a bit.

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Chaotic Good: Governments should be afraid of their people.

Re: Shane's - What do you look for as a player?

Connors 14 Oct 2012 11:54

So, Character was the answer ;) I definitely see you as a character first person.

Setting and plot next. I am sure Antonio will be heavily involved in the interactions in this game. Hopefully some NPCs are of interest, but that is not my strength (unless I have prepped beforehand) ;)

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“It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit.” – Harry S. Truman